Project Home
Project Home		 Source Code
Source Code		 Documents
Documents		 Wiki
Wiki		 Discussion Forums
Discussions		 Project Information
Project Info
Core Development Tools/Discussion/General/Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?/List of Posts
BroadcastCommunity.qnx.com will be offline from May 31 6:00pm until June 2 12:00AM for upcoming system upgrades. For more information please go to https://community.qnx.com/sf/discussion/do/listPosts/projects.bazaar/discussion.bazaar.topc28418
Forum Topic - Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?: (19 Items)
   
Update
Tim Hale
04/02/2009 8:15 PM
post25944
Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   
It appears that the standard install of the QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 OS (the DVD iso from the QNX website) doesn’t come with 
the Momentics IDE anymore. Does anyone know how to install Momentics on a QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 machine? 

I installed from the “All Host” DVD (iso downloaded from the website), but it only contains the Neutrino RTOS 6.4.0 
and Momentics installers for Windows and Linux hosts only. I then tried booting from the “Neutrino Host” CD, but again
 this version of the RTOS did not have Momentics on it. Does Momentics not support Neutrino 6.4.0?
Mario Charest
04/02/2009 10:36 PM
post25946
RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   
It`s not available anymore and my gut feeling tells me it won`t ever be

________________________________________
From: Tim Hale [community-noreply@qnx.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 8:15 PM
To: general-toolchain
Subject: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?

It appears that the standard install of the QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 OS (the DVD iso from the QNX website) doesn’t come with 
the Momentics IDE anymore. Does anyone know how to install Momentics on a QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 machine?

I installed from the “All Host” DVD (iso downloaded from the website), but it only contains the Neutrino RTOS 6.4.0 
and Momentics installers for Windows and Linux hosts only. I then tried booting from the “Neutrino Host” CD, but again
 this version of the RTOS did not have Momentics on it. Does Momentics not support Neutrino 6.4.0?

_______________________________________________
General
http://community.qnx.com/sf/go/post25944
Elena Laskavaia
04/03/2009 10:14 AM
post25967
Re: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   
I don't understand fun on working on desktop that runs micro-kernel OS with fault protection, message passing and power 
safe file system,
it is all nice for runtime but for desktop it means it would be SLOW. IDE would be 10 times slower as linux. Build time 
would 10-50 times slow. Why all this sacrifice?


Mario Charest wrote:
> It`s not available anymore and my gut feeling tells me it won`t ever be
> 
> ________________________________________
> From: Tim Hale [community-noreply@qnx.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 8:15 PM
> To: general-toolchain
> Subject: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?
> 
> It appears that the standard install of the QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 OS (the DVD iso from the QNX website) doesn’t come 
with the Momentics IDE anymore. Does anyone know how to install Momentics on a QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 machine?
> 
> I installed from the “All Host” DVD (iso downloaded from the website), but it only contains the Neutrino RTOS 6.4.0 
and Momentics installers for Windows and Linux hosts only. I then tried booting from the “Neutrino Host” CD, but again
 this version of the RTOS did not have Momentics on it. Does Momentics not support Neutrino 6.4.0?
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General
> http://community.qnx.com/sf/go/post25944
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General
> http://community.qnx.com/sf/go/post25946
Sean Boudreau(deleted)
04/03/2009 10:31 AM
post25973
Re: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   
On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 10:14:17AM -0400, Elena Laskavaia wrote:
> I don't understand fun on working on desktop that runs micro-kernel OS with fault protection, message passing and 
power safe file system,
> it is all nice for runtime but for desktop it means it would be SLOW. IDE would be 10 times slower as linux. Build 
time would 10-50 times slow. Why all this sacrifice?

- I've always found myself much more productive self hosted.
- Running our stuff is a great way to find bugs.
- Necessity is the mother of invention.

-seanb
Elena Laskavaia
04/03/2009 10:38 AM
post25976
Re: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   

Sean Boudreau wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 10:14:17AM -0400, Elena Laskavaia wrote:
>> I don't understand fun on working on desktop that runs micro-kernel OS with fault protection, message passing and 
power safe file system,
>> it is all nice for runtime but for desktop it means it would be SLOW. IDE would be 10 times slower as linux. Build 
time would 10-50 times slow. Why all this sacrifice?
> 
> - I've always found myself much more productive self hosted.
I don't think you were using IDE. Did you?

> - Running our stuff is a great way to find bugs.
Which is good point for qnx employee, not sure it is applicable for customers

> - Necessity is the mother of invention.
Which in this case worked the other way around. Not enough necessity and we don't want to support it anymore.

> 
> -seanb
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General
> http://community.qnx.com/sf/go/post25973
>
Mario Charest
04/03/2009 10:49 AM
post25981
RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elena Laskavaia [mailto:community-noreply@qnx.com]
> Sent: April-03-09 10:39 AM
> To: general-toolchain
> Subject: Re: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?
> 
> 
> 
> Sean Boudreau wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 03, 2009 at 10:14:17AM -0400, Elena Laskavaia wrote:
> >> I don't understand fun on working on desktop that runs micro-kernel
> OS with fault protection, message passing and power safe file system,
> >> it is all nice for runtime but for desktop it means it would be
> SLOW. IDE would be 10 times slower as linux. Build time would 10-50
> times slow. Why all this sacrifice?
> >
> > - I've always found myself much more productive self hosted.
> I don't think you were using IDE. Did you?

And you Elena what are you using QNX for?

> 
> > - Running our stuff is a great way to find bugs.
> Which is good point for qnx employee, not sure it is applicable for
> customers
> 
> > - Necessity is the mother of invention.
> Which in this case worked the other way around. Not enough necessity
> and we don't want to support it anymore.

By doing so you are killing 20 years of philosophy that was partly the success of QNX. You are also giving arguments to 
people that are over the fence about QNX and Linux. QNX isn't fully self hosted anymore while Linux is.
You are also turning away from industrial market for which self hosted is a great asset.

But hey it's your company, you get to run it like you want ;-) 


> 
> >
> > -seanb
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > General
> > http://community.qnx.com/sf/go/post25973
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General
> http://community.qnx.com/sf/go/post25976
>
Elena Laskavaia
04/03/2009 11:03 AM
post25984
Re: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   
> 
> By doing so you are killing 20 years of philosophy that was partly the success of QNX. You are also giving arguments 
to people that are over the fence about QNX and Linux. QNX isn't fully self hosted anymore while Linux is.
> You are also turning away from industrial market for which self hosted is a great asset.
> 
> But hey it's your company, you get to run it like you want ;-) 
> 
I don't have that much control. I am just developer. This was a business decision. This was only my 2 cents about why I 
don't think it worse it.
I was TRYING to use IDE 4.5 on self hosted, it was not good by any means. You can download it from foundry if you want 
and see yourself.
Mario Charest
04/03/2009 11:20 AM
post25985
RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elena Laskavaia [mailto:community-noreply@qnx.com]
> Sent: April-03-09 11:03 AM
> To: general-toolchain
> Subject: Re: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?
> 
> 
> >
> > By doing so you are killing 20 years of philosophy that was partly
> the success of QNX. You are also giving arguments to people that are
> over the fence about QNX and Linux. QNX isn't fully self hosted anymore
> while Linux is.
> > You are also turning away from industrial market for which self
> hosted is a great asset.
> >
> > But hey it's your company, you get to run it like you want ;-)
> >
> I don't have that much control. I am just developer. This was a
> business decision. This was only my 2 cents about why I don't think it
> worse it.

I understand that, it was my 2 cents about the flip side.

> I was TRYING to use IDE 4.5 on self hosted, it was not good by any
> means. You can download it from foundry if you want and see yourself.

Oh I know.  I've never use the IDE on self-hosted, was just to slow for my taste.  However I don't buy the argument that
 it's because of the architecture of the OS, the problem is the JVM.

For that matter why is QSS still bothering proving a compiler for and associated tools for self-hosted, unless this is 
also about to go bye bye very soon.

Just ran a test of a compile between Linux and QNX of the same hardware from the command line.  QNX 24.94 sec, Linux 23.
29 sec ;-)

Ok now i'm bending my own policy of sticking to technical issue.  Time to get back on track...

> 
> _______________________________________________
> General
> http://community.qnx.com/sf/go/post25984
>
Malte Mundt(deleted)
04/24/2009 5:35 AM
post27966
Re: RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   
> By doing so you are killing 20 years of philosophy that was partly the success
>  of QNX. You are also giving arguments to people that are over the fence about
>  QNX and Linux. QNX isn't fully self hosted anymore while Linux is.
> You are also turning away from industrial market for which self hosted is a 
> great asset.

I doubt that people use Embedded Linux on their desktop. :-)

I agree that it's a pity that the self-hosted IDE is gone, but I also think it was the JVM and this is something QNX 
cannot easily address. As for new QNX customers, I don't meet anyone that even asks about self-hosted development. 
Everyone expects cross development. Seems all QNX competion (Wind River, Green Hills) does it too. 


- Malte
Mario Charest
04/24/2009 8:36 AM
post27977
RE: RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Malte Mundt [mailto:community-noreply@qnx.com]
> Sent: April-24-09 5:35 AM
> To: general-toolchain
> Subject: Re: RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?
> 
> > By doing so you are killing 20 years of philosophy that was partly
> the success
> >  of QNX. You are also giving arguments to people that are over the
> fence about
> >  QNX and Linux. QNX isn't fully self hosted anymore while Linux is.
> > You are also turning away from industrial market for which self
> hosted is a
> > great asset.
> 
> I doubt that people use Embedded Linux on their desktop. :-)
> 
> I agree that it's a pity that the self-hosted IDE is gone, but I also
> think it was the JVM and this is something QNX cannot easily address.
>
> As for new QNX customers, I don't meet anyone that even asks about
> self-hosted development. 
>

>Everyone expects cross development. Seems all QNX competion (Wind River, Green Hills) does it too.

Hum, you don't see Linux as QNX competition.  That tells me a lot.  Already said more than my religion allows me to, 
stick to technical issue...


>
> - Malte


> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General
> http://community.qnx.com/sf/go/post27966
>
Malte Mundt(deleted)
05/07/2009 8:22 AM
post28879
Re: RE: RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   
> >Everyone expects cross development. Seems all QNX competion (Wind River, 
> Green Hills) does it too.
> 
> Hum, you don't see Linux as QNX competition.  That tells me a lot.  Already 
> said more than my religion allows me to, stick to technical issue...
> 

What do you mean by 'that tells you a lot' ? And what has religion to do with this?

I sometimes do meet Linux as a competitor to QNX, but for realtime and real embedded, QNX is superior. You are right in 
that QNX was self hosted for a long time, and it still is! Except for the IDE. 

Linux is a competition in embedded, yes. But if you mean I don't see Linux as a competitor for the host side, you are 
right. We are not trying to compete with Linux as a host, e.g. desktop, OS.


- Malte
Mario Charest
05/07/2009 8:58 AM
post28883
RE: RE: RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Malte Mundt [mailto:community-noreply@qnx.com]
> Sent: May-07-09 8:22 AM
> To: general-toolchain
> Subject: Re: RE: RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?
> 
> 
> > >Everyone expects cross development. Seems all QNX competion (Wind
> River,
> > Green Hills) does it too.
> >
> > Hum, you don't see Linux as QNX competition.  That tells me a lot.
> Already
> > said more than my religion allows me to, stick to technical issue...
> >
> 
> What do you mean by 'that tells you a lot' ?

That tells me the company I'm working for is not the main target of QNX anymore (even though sales people will of course
 say we are still a target) and as such our path are not necessarily going the same direction or being walked on at the 
same speed.  We haven't changed direction but QNX did (i'm not just talking about the lack of IDE on self-hosted), so 
that tells me the time to split path maybe coming.  

> And what has religion to do with this?

Probably bad translation from a Canadian French expression.  It means that it's something I must resist doing because I 
believe it to be wrong.  Over the year I've seen lots of people says QNX should do this, QNX should do that.  Most of 
the time I believe these people had no freaking idea what they were talking about.  As such I've decided a few years 
back to never comment business/marketing decisions on a medium such as foundry27 which is about technical issue.  

> 
> 
> - Malte
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General
> http://community.qnx.com/sf/go/post28879
>
Mario Charest
05/07/2009 9:20 AM
post28890
RE: RE: RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Malte Mundt [mailto:community-noreply@qnx.com]
> Sent: May-07-09 8:22 AM
> To: general-toolchain
> Subject: Re: RE: RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?
> 
> But if you mean I don't see Linux as a competitor for the host side,
> you are right. We are not trying to compete with Linux as a host, e.g. desktop, OS.

My understanding is that QNX4/QNX6 was not only for embedded but also for the industrial market as described on http://
www.qnx.com/solutions/industries/automation/.  If you look at the list of items at the bottom of the page, I'm guessing 
that most the stuff listed comes from the QNX4 days and that most don't really care about "hard-embedded".  

> 
> 
> - Malte
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General
> http://community.qnx.com/sf/go/post28879
>
Mario Charest
05/07/2009 12:15 PM
post28957
RE: RE: RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mario Charest
> Sent: May-07-09 9:21 AM
> To: 'post28879@community.qnx.com'
> Subject: RE: RE: RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Malte Mundt [mailto:community-noreply@qnx.com]
> > Sent: May-07-09 8:22 AM
> > To: general-toolchain
> > Subject: Re: RE: RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?
> >
> > But if you mean I don't see Linux as a competitor for the host side,
> > you are right. We are not trying to compete with Linux as a host,
> e.g. desktop, OS.
> 
> My understanding is that QNX4/QNX6 was not only for embedded but also
> for the industrial market as described on
> http://www.qnx.com/solutions/industries/automation/.  If you look at
> the list of items at the bottom of the page, I'm guessing that most the
> stuff listed comes from the QNX4 days and that most don't really care
> about "hard-embedded".

Seems like I have no clue what the Industrial Market is, oh well :
http://tertiarymatters.wordpress.com/2009/04/30/power-architecture-and-the-industrial-market/

> 
> >
> >
> > - Malte
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > General
> > http://community.qnx.com/sf/go/post28879
> >
Bill Graham
05/07/2009 4:46 PM
post28979
Re: RE: RE: RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   
I usually stay out of these debates but since they are public and searchable there might be confusion on what exactly 
QNX is doing in this respect.

First, let me reiterate that self hosted x86 development is not going away. There is no plan to remove support for the 
command line tools, Photon and the desktop environment for x86 self hosted. We continue to provide a boot DVD and CD for
 the 6.4.x releases.

Second, the decision to stop shipping the self hosted IDE was a tough one but it was a business decision, costs were 
(much) greater than return.

Third, Linux is a competitor and we view it as such. Yes, Linux has self hosted development most likely only practical 
for PC-like x86 hardware. Self hosted for PowerPC, ARM, etc. doesn't seem practical. 

Fourth, Industrial automation is an extremely varied market. Intel architecture continues to be an important part of 
this market but other processor architectures are growing in importance. Self hosted is not an option for anything other
 than x86 PC-like hardware. We provide full cross-development support for Windows and Linux, something that all other 
vendors of this market and others would offer (including commercial Linux vendors).

Fifth, the reference to our Industrial Automation page reference customer success stories: some are QNX4 projects, some 
are QNX Neutrino as well. We take the Industrial Automation market seriously and are continuing support it as best we 
can. This doesn't mean x86 only, this means all the important processors for the market.
Mario Charest
05/07/2009 5:42 PM
post28983
RE: RE: RE: RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Graham [mailto:community-noreply@qnx.com]
> Sent: May-07-09 4:47 PM
> To: general-toolchain
> Subject: Re: RE: RE: RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0
> Hosts?
>

> I usually stay out of these debates but since they are public and
> searchable there might be confusion on what exactly QNX is doing in
> this respect.
> 

I won't do it again, swear to <favourite mytical figure>!
Mario Charest
04/03/2009 10:34 AM
post25975
RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elena Laskavaia [mailto:community-noreply@qnx.com]
> Sent: April-03-09 10:14 AM
> To: general-toolchain
> Subject: Re: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?
> 
> I don't understand fun on working on desktop that runs micro-kernel OS
> with fault protection, message passing and power safe file system,
> it is all nice for runtime but for desktop it means it would be SLOW.
> IDE would be 10 times slower as linux. 

What??? The IDE is slower because of the jvm not because of the OS.

> Build time would 10-50 times slow. Why all this sacrifice?

10-50 times as slow? Elena are you on drugs this morning?  Our QNX6 build box compiles as fast as the Linux box ( 
command line).

Even if it would be a tad slower this is a pointeless argument, Eclipse is written in Java, duh!!!!  Talk about overhead
. On Windows the tools are using cygwin and extra layers that really hurt performance.

> 
> 
> Mario Charest wrote:
> > It`s not available anymore and my gut feeling tells me it won`t ever
> be
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Tim Hale [community-noreply@qnx.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 8:15 PM
> > To: general-toolchain
> > Subject: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?
> >
> > It appears that the standard install of the QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 OS
> (the DVD iso from the QNX website) doesn’t come with the Momentics IDE
> anymore. Does anyone know how to install Momentics on a QNX Neutrino
> 6.4.0 machine?
> >
> > I installed from the “All Host” DVD (iso downloaded from the
> website), but it only contains the Neutrino RTOS 6.4.0 and Momentics
> installers for Windows and Linux hosts only. I then tried booting from
> the “Neutrino Host” CD, but again this version of the RTOS did not have
> Momentics on it. Does Momentics not support Neutrino 6.4.0?
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > General
> > http://community.qnx.com/sf/go/post25944
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > General
> > http://community.qnx.com/sf/go/post25946
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General
> http://community.qnx.com/sf/go/post25967
Elena Laskavaia
04/03/2009 10:41 AM
post25979
Re: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   
IDE build of project X on self hosted takes an hour, while same project on linux in IDE takes 5 minutes. Command line 
build maybe a bit faster but I am talking about IDE.

Mario Charest wrote:
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Elena Laskavaia [mailto:community-noreply@qnx.com]
>> Sent: April-03-09 10:14 AM
>> To: general-toolchain
>> Subject: Re: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?
>>
>> I don't understand fun on working on desktop that runs micro-kernel OS
>> with fault protection, message passing and power safe file system,
>> it is all nice for runtime but for desktop it means it would be SLOW.
>> IDE would be 10 times slower as linux. 
> 
> What??? The IDE is slower because of the jvm not because of the OS.
> 
>> Build time would 10-50 times slow. Why all this sacrifice?
> 
> 10-50 times as slow? Elena are you on drugs this morning?  Our QNX6 build box compiles as fast as the Linux box ( 
command line).
> 
> Even if it would be a tad slower this is a pointeless argument, Eclipse is written in Java, duh!!!!  Talk about 
overhead. On Windows the tools are using cygwin and extra layers that really hurt performance.
> 
>>
Mario Charest
04/03/2009 10:45 AM
post25980
RE: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?   

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elena Laskavaia [mailto:community-noreply@qnx.com]
> Sent: April-03-09 10:42 AM
> To: general-toolchain
> Subject: Re: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?
> 
> IDE build of project X on self hosted takes an hour, while same project
> on linux in IDE takes 5 minutes. Command line build maybe a bit faster
> but I am talking about IDE.

As I'm saying probably coming from the JVM.

> 
> Mario Charest wrote:
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Elena Laskavaia [mailto:community-noreply@qnx.com]
> >> Sent: April-03-09 10:14 AM
> >> To: general-toolchain
> >> Subject: Re: Does Momentics Support QNX Neutrino 6.4.0 Hosts?
> >>
> >> I don't understand fun on working on desktop that runs micro-kernel
> OS
> >> with fault protection, message passing and power safe file system,
> >> it is all nice for runtime but for desktop it means it would be
> SLOW.
> >> IDE would be 10 times slower as linux.
> >
> > What??? The IDE is slower because of the jvm not because of the OS.
> >
> >> Build time would 10-50 times slow. Why all this sacrifice?
> >
> > 10-50 times as slow? Elena are you on drugs this morning?  Our QNX6
> build box compiles as fast as the Linux box ( command line).
> >
> > Even if it would be a tad slower this is a pointeless argument,
> Eclipse is written in Java, duh!!!!  Talk about overhead. On Windows
> the tools are using cygwin and extra layers that really hurt
> performance.
> >
> >>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General
> http://community.qnx.com/sf/go/post25979
>

Return


  A subsidiary of BlackBerry             All content ©2004-2013, QNX Software Systems